How much truck does one need?

[Guest]

IIRC someone once told me that those old C10s pulled a sub 15 second 1/4 mile.... Stock!

I am glad you didn't sell it! that's a nice truck.

Wally

[spunebil]

So am I!
I need to find a radio for it
and it runs great now, but when I install high rise alum. Duel plane and a Lunati "Voodoo" cam it will really be nice!

[Guest]

Great discussion here, but I think one more item needs to be covered.....What are you towing?

When I bought my jeep and had to head deep into the ozarks to meet the transport and bring it home, I rented a car hauler from u-haul (dual axel w/ brakes), they of coarse checked my tow vehicle (2011 GMC 6 liter gas) and the factory weight of the scrambler. I was shocked to learn a stock scrambler was only 2970 lbs!!! This led to a long discussion on CJ-8 about the weight of everyones rig. We all came to the conclusion that with little stock rubber, light duty bumpers, and none of todays weight bloating niceties (22 Airbags, computers, ect) that the early cj were pretty lightweight machines. The other thing we determined is that after putting on 4.5" of lift, 35" tires, recovery bumper w/ carriers, rock sliders and a Warn, that number could easily hit 4000-4200 lbs (several owners weighed their's). I can imagine a modern TJ or JK with all the same add-on's could probably tip the 5,000 lbs barrier.

I can safely say that in stock, 3,000 lb form, a solid and healthy 1/2 would have been an adequate tow vehicle. The gas 3/4 did fine, but I will admit in some of the hills, you got to hear it work (which wouldn't have been so true for a diesel). If it would have been a home-built trailer (read heavy - heavy duty) with a 5,000 lb jeep plus gear (coolers, ect), I think the 1/2 ton becomes pretty sketchy. Not that it couldn't have been done, but the margin for error is getting tighter.

[rustinh1]

I'll agree with KSU_CJ8 on his post above. That's a major concern.

I know my tag trailer weighs in at 3400# IIRC and then toss my TJ on top of that with tons, 42s, blah blah blah, I'm likely towing 9k behind my truck easily. When I tow two like next weekend will yield, the trailer is 10k# dry + my rig + tommyg's rig, we'll be tugging close to 20k behind my truck. That weight doesn't bother me, but the tag trailer with my J Jeep at say 9k pounds would certainly put some stress on me in the driver's seat if I were towing with a half ton truck. It would be completely doable, but again I go back to the comfort factor of stopping/manuevering in an emergency situation.

[audioguy1]

My old Cherokee on my 16ft flatbed is about all my half ton wants. It'll do it, but it seems to struggle. My old 2500 Suburban with a 454 Vortec however, didn't even act like it felt it back there. I felt much more comfortable towing with my 3/4 ton than I do with my truck now. Not to say that it won't do it, but I have the same concerns as Rusty, keeping under control in emergency situations.

As for my new project, I am going to need to upgrade trailer and truck as current trailer isn't wide enough for full width and new setup will greatly exceed truck's GVW and I'm not playing that game anymore, especially if I have my wife and daughter in the truck with me while towing.

[Guest]

Safety or perceived safety and the issue of weight of the tow vehicle......... I don't know about that...... other than staying within the manufacturer's recommendations.

I suggested, the loads that tractor trailers are carrying are TWICE the weight of the tow vehicle and 1.5 times the weight of the tractor and trailer.

If weight is gonna be an issue for a half ton, then its really gonna be a HUGE problem with 75-80,000 lbs. If it all has to come to a screeching halt, it has to come to a screeching halt. Physics is physics........

Keeping under control in emergency situations starts with setting one's junk up correctly, having trailer brakes and a controller that allows one to put the trailer brakes on independent of the tow vehicle.

The other part is driving like one has a trailer back there. i.e. no tail gating, whipping in and out of traffic, plenty of room to stop, looking for ways to have an open lane, inspecting the equipment for worn parts, etc etc etc.

Unless there is some way to explain how the physics of stopping 80,000lbs is any different than 12-15,000lbs, in an apples to apples comparison i.e. trailer brakes set up correctly, tires in good shape, following the recommendations of the manufacturers for towing........ I guess I just don't see it as anything more than perception.

Wally

[audioguy1]

I'm not disagreing with you there and I always make sure my brakes are working and the load is on correctly and of course, wheels bearings in good shape and all that. As for emergencies, I mean more of the moron cutting you off or the trucker forcing you off the road bc they're not paying attention. Not tailgating or driving like an idiot.

[sangell]

Very nice topic and discussion.

My two cents: I have been towing for recreation either for drag racing or four wheeling for 15 years. In the early days it was a drag car to local tracks (no more than an hour drive). When I got into wheeling to the point I was hauling the Jeep I was towing with a 1998 1/2 ton Dodge with the 5.9 gas motor hauling a 97 TJ on 35s, this included two trips to Moab. I then came across a good deal on a 1998 Dodge 2500 5.9 gas motor. The trucks had the same engine and trans, the 2500 had lower gearing, power wise they seemed to two the same (go figure) however the 2500 did handle the weight much better. As I began to wheel more and travel more my trailers got bigger as I was hauling more gear and even two rigs so my tow rig grew. I have owned three Dodge diesels since 2002 and I spent eights years working at a performance diesel shop, the first was a 2002 3/4 ton, my family just out grew it, the second was a 2003 DRW which got totaled or I would still own it, and know the 2005 DRW.

I have been towing with my 2005 Dodge 3500 DRW diesel 6spd since I got it new. I have two trailers, a 34' goose neck for hauling two rigs, and a 28' goose neck that has a camper on the front and is the most common trailer I tow. With the 34' loaded for bear going to the King Of The Hammers race in 2009 the GVW (on a CAT scale) was 25,840lbs. It was heavy and I feel it was the limit that I would want to haul. With my 28' loaded up with one rig my GVW goes between 20,000 and 22,000. Since 2007 when we started racing in W.E.Rock and RROCK I have put 40,000+ miles on my truck towing. With as much weight and as often as I tow I would not do it with less than a diesel DRW (IMO). I do not daily drive my truck, it is for towing and hauling duties.

If I was hauling one offroad rig of average size (5000lbs or less) on a 7k GVWR trailer and did it tow very often or very far I would own a 1/2 ton gas truck or at most a 3/4 ton gas truck. The cost to maintain a diesel is not cheap, they cost more to buy, and operate.

Again these are just my opinions and great topic.

Scott

[rustinh1]

Safety or perceived safety and the issue of weight of the tow vehicle......... I don't know about that...... other than staying within the manufacturer's recommendations.

I suggested, the loads that tractor trailers are carrying are TWICE the weight of the tow vehicle and 1.5 times the weight of the tractor and trailer.

If weight is gonna be an issue for a half ton, then its really gonna be a HUGE problem with 75-80,000 lbs. If it all has to come to a screeching halt, it has to come to a screeching halt. Physics is physics........

Keeping under control in emergency situations starts with setting one's junk up correctly, having trailer brakes and a controller that allows one to put the trailer brakes on independent of the tow vehicle.

The other part is driving like one has a trailer back there. i.e. no tail gating, whipping in and out of traffic, plenty of room to stop, looking for ways to have an open lane, inspecting the equipment for worn parts, etc etc etc.

Unless there is some way to explain how the physics of stopping 80,000lbs is any different than 12-15,000lbs, in an apples to apples comparison i.e. trailer brakes set up correctly, tires in good shape, following the recommendations of the manufacturers for towing........ I guess I just don't see it as anything more than perception.

Wally

Wally,

I'm not disagreeing with your argument, but here is one point to ponder.....

Airride suspension on Semi's is setup for towing, period. While I agree that the physics of stopping the weight towed vs tow vehicle weight is a direct correlation on paper; the underlying assumptions with that comparison are not, in fact, apples to apples.

Think about the characteristics of the suspension in a half ton truck: 3-4 leaf pack for the rear and typically independent front. With that set up, your force for control in an emergency manuever situation is nothing like what an OTR truck is capable of handling. Those trucks run monobeam front axles where the beam of the axle is super low compared to where the "hub" assembly rides so as to lower the weight of the drivetrain even more making them more stable. They are also running two sets of duals in the back on full air ride so that they don't "squat" like a light duty pickup. Furthermore, they are connected to a 5th wheel style hitch which tows COMPLETELY different than a tag trailer.

Again, I understand your apples to apples comparison, but in reality you are attempting to compare apples to oranges.

I agree with Chris as well, it's the other drivers on the road that have always caused an emergency situation vs the way I drive. I'm always exceedingly anal about all the maintenance being up on my tow rig and trailer as well as drive in a manner that's certainly reasonable.

For me, the Diesel is the only way to go.

[Guest]

I am ok if others disagree.

I believe, that manufacturers take into account the sum of the whole when they give a tow rating.

The tow rating on current SVT Ford Rapter is 6000lbs, that’s a 6000lb vehicle, that has the same frame as every other Ford F-150 and yet its tow capacity is roughly 55% of the maximum tow recommendation.

The SVT Ford Lightening was the same way , even though it came with F250 brakes, held a skid pad of over .8G, it still had a tow rating of 5000lbs.

LOL I use Ford's as an example, because my family works for Ford, so I get an earful about them from time to time. :-)

BUT....... other manufacturer's work in much the same manner.

I don’t recall what the tow ratings were for the Syclones and Typhoons, hot rod trucks of their day, still are pretty sweet rides IMO! I don't know that if they even had a tow rating BUT I bet it was way less than the comparative S-10, Sonoma or Blazer of that day. Because of the sum of the whole and its orientation.

OTR trucks are designed for ….. 80,000 lbs, because of the law..... BUT they could be designed for 100,000 or 120,000 lbs. In Australia its not uncommon for trucks to gross 250,000 lbs!

Independent, solid axle, leafs, coils or air bags ARE taken into consideration when giving a tow rating…. Among other things.

What I am getting at is that, manufacturers at least appear to me to make those recommendations and hold the liability for those recommendations.

I absolutely agree about towing mind set. I drive as if I am a bit wary of everyone, sorta like you have to do if your riding a motorcycle. People don't think, and so we have to think for them.

Wally

[rjh]

Axle gearing has a lot to do with it too. My 1/2 ton is rated for something like 6500# with the 3.73's in it, or something like 8500# with 4.10's (I'd have to check the owners manual for the actual numbers; those are ballpark though). It doesn't have a tow package so I added a transmission cooler to it to help keep the tranny cool while pulling. The 3/4 ton has a tow package which adjusts the shift points so it's not always changing gears while pulling, and it's got 4.10 gears. Makes for lousy mileage around town, but it sure does pull better.

[spunebil]

Springs, leaf, coil (never saw them on a 18 wheeler) and airbags dont really matter for tow capacity!
Engine torque, frame/axles and Brakes are the Big Three! :)
Or four lol
My peterbuilt tractor had a 230" wb (set back front axle) and weighted right around 15,000 and me flatbed 48' trailer was also around 15,000 pounds!
only 310 (cat)/300(cummins) these were the two engines company used and both were about equal wifh 1200 pounds feet of torque at 1200 rpm. And 80,000 pound Gross weight.
So unless you tow double rig trailers or every week or so, a 1/2 ton (min.) Or better yet a 3/4 ton is all ya really need! :)

[Guest]

Just to clarify, up until 1 or 2 years ago, there was not official formula for determining the tow ratings of 1/2, 3/4, or 1 ton trucks. Truck manufactures were completely on their own to generate tow ratings. As "mine is bigger than yours" items go, higher tow ratings sells trucks. It's only recently that the manufacturers realized this was an "arms" race that no one won, and started supporting an ASME tow rating standard.

I am ok if others disagree.

I believe, that manufacturers take into account the sum of the whole when they give a tow rating.

The tow rating on current SVT Ford Rapter is 6000lbs, that’s a 6000lb vehicle, that has the same frame as every other Ford F-150 and yet its tow capacity is roughly 55% of the maximum tow recommendation.

The SVT Ford Lightening was the same way , even though it came with F250 brakes, held a skid pad of over .8G, it still had a tow rating of 5000lbs.

LOL I use Ford's as an example, because my family works for Ford, so I get an earful about them from time to time. :-)

BUT....... other manufacturer's work in much the same manner.

I don’t recall what the tow ratings were for the Syclones and Typhoons, hot rod trucks of their day, still are pretty sweet rides IMO! I don't know that if they even had a tow rating BUT I bet it was way less than the comparative S-10, Sonoma or Blazer of that day. Because of the sum of the whole and its orientation.

OTR trucks are designed for ….. 80,000 lbs, because of the law..... BUT they could be designed for 100,000 or 120,000 lbs. In Australia its not uncommon for trucks to gross 250,000 lbs!

Independent, solid axle, leafs, coils or air bags ARE taken into consideration when giving a tow rating…. Among other things.

What I am getting at is that, manufacturers at least appear to me to make those recommendations and hold the liability for those recommendations.

I absolutely agree about towing mind set. I drive as if I am a bit wary of everyone, sorta like you have to do if your riding a motorcycle. People don't think, and so we have to think for them.

Wally

[Guest]

So what about a V10? I know that our V10 van with 3.73s pulls alot better then the 5.8 V8 with 3.55s.

And just to stir the pot: I have heard a few guys say that a V10 would out pull a diesel.

[Guest]

the V10 will output the V8 all day assuming displacement and valving is similar per cylinder. 3.73s will also outpull 3.55s simply because it puts the engine closer to peak HP/TQ faster at any given speed or throttle input.