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For me, when I was researching what I needed for a tow vehicle, I looked at objective data as well as talked with people that used their trucks to make a living.
It seems that every time I turn around, the advice from Jeepers, is that you need a 400 horse power diesel, 700-800 foot pounds of torque to tow a Jeep safely.
I am gonna call BS.
Lets look at objective data.
1. What does the manufacture recommend for towing?
2. How can we compare objectively apples to apples?
3. How does that claim stand up against its competitors?
1. The manufacturer has the duty to be able to back up the claim from a liability standpoint. In other words their engineers build in a safety margin into the product so that they can claim that the consumer abused their product and that was the cause of the failure, if one were to occur. Typically its 1.5 to 2x the manufacturer’s ratings.
2. How can we compare objectively apples to apples?
Tractor trailers typically weight 21000 pounds give or take a ton. With a trailer they push 32000 pounds, give or take a ton. How much are they towing? Typically 40-46,000 pounds. That means that they are on average towing OVER twice the weight of the tow vehicle, and 1.5 times the weight of the tow vehicle and trailer togather.
Lets translate that into truck towing. One could infer that if handing was going to be a problem, and weight was the cause of poor handling, surely the kinds of weights that semi tractor trailers are hauling and towing, the weight ratios would be a good start on what not to do. What I am getting at, from a logical standpoint is that if its linear weights being compared to perceive danger, then the ratio limits for trucks should be good starting points, if its nonlinear and you disagree that we can't use the comparison, then then the greater the weight ratio the more perceive danger, therefore conservative numbers would be advised.
Let me give an example, starting with weight alone. If a truck weighs 6000 pounds, and the trailer weighs 2500, that works out to 8500 pounds with a trailer. Using a 1.5x times the weight of the truck and trailer, that would work out to about 12000 pound load on the trailer, in other words, 3 Jeeps AND all of their tools and supplies. OR a gross weight of around 10 ton.
From my perspective if there is a linear relationship involving weight, then the comparison would be valid, if its nonlinear then we would err on the side of caution with more weight not less and therefore my weight comparison would be conservative.
Another apples to apples to comparison that can be made is looking at engine performance for torque. The larger engines found in tractor trailers are pushing 5-700 horsepower and 1800-2000 foot pounds of torque. The smaller engines are NOT making those kinds of figures. If the maximum load that a tractor trailer can pull is 80,000 pounds gross, that works out to about 40 foot pounds of tow weight per pound of engine torque. That is a figure that should give an illustration or ball park target to shoot for when comparing one tow vehicle to another
3. Lets start comparing vehicles.
For fun, lets look at my 2004 Toyota Tacoma. Dry weight for a Double Cab Tacoma is 4200lbs. Thus with trailer (1400lbs) thus truck and trailer were about 5600lbs. Its max tow rating was 5000lbs, manufacturer’s claim. So the limiting factor was the manufacturer’s claim. 5000s lbs. Thankfully my Jeep (3400) and trailer (1400) weighed in under 5000 pounds at 4800. Thus the total gross weight was 9800lbs. Add in another 1000lbs for people, we are looking at 10,800lbs.
Legally and safely, the Tacoma met the standard. How did it tow? With a load leveling hitch and trailer brakes, it stopped safely, handled safely.
Now lets look at the performance side of things. Performance wise it had a 190 horse V6 with 225 foot pound of torque.
10800 gross tow weight. 225 foot pounds of torque. That works out to about 48 pounds of tow weight to every foot pound of engine torque. Sounds like its just a little underpowered when compared to a standard of 40.
Yes, it was a little underpowered. BUT guess what? It STILL pulled on the flat at 70mph without difficulty on the freeway and 55mph on steep hills deep in the Ozarks.
I moved to an F150. Dry weigh is 6000lbs. With trailer, it weighs in around 7400 pounds. What is the manufacturer claim? 9500 pounds max tow weight. Hmmmm that is just shy of 1.5 times the gross weight of the trailer and the truck. Are you starting to see a trend here? So the going with the manufacture’s claim of 9500, that puts us at 15500lbs gross load.
Moving onto the performance side of things. It has 310 hp and 390 foot pounds of torque.
15500 divided by 390 works out to about 40 pounds of tow weight for each foot pound of engine torque. Where did we see 40lbs of tow weight for each foot pound of engine torque?
Real world, my gross weight is about 12,200, per calibrated scales. That works out to about 31 pounds of tow weight per foot pound of engine torque.
Lets throw a Ford Superduty Diesel into the mix. Why? It’s a 1 ton truck, with a high performance diesel engine. 400 horsepower, 800 foot pounds of torque. Tow rating is 17500 pounds. Vehicle weight is 6400 pounds with super cab mid length wheelbase. Max total weight is 33,000 per manufacturer’s recommendations.
Lets try to look at this first from a max stand point, then real world. Max is 33,000 pounds. That works out to 41 pounds of tow weight per foot pound of engine torque. Since the manufacturer lists 17500 as the max tow weight, lets add in 1000lbs for people and gear on top of the 6400 pounds of the vehicle, the total weight comes to 24,900. That works out to about 31pounds of tow weight per foot pound of engine torque.
Lets pause and ponder for a moment. How many Jeeps can you haul for 17500lbs? Lets knock off 3000 for a decent trailer. That works out to 3 jeeps weighing at 4000lbs a piece PLUS all of their gear AND 4 full size adults.
I have one Jeep, and a 1400lb trailer for a total weight of 4800lbs. Fully loaded, with the family, a 1 ton diesel Ford diesel with 800 foot pounds of torque would be hauling 15lb of tow weight per foot pound of engine torque.
In essence the objective data is the manufacturer’s tow rating specifications AND engine performance. IMO 40sh lbs of tow weight per foot pound of torque is a FAIR ball park performance value to look at when deciding how BIG of a truck one needs for towing.
For me, I came to the conclusion that a ½ ton pick up would be more than adequate for towing ONE Jeep on a trailer. If I towed 10 ton, on a regular basis ie monthly or more, I would consider a ¾ or 1 ton, BUT since I don’t, I find little value in spending more money on performance that I don’t need.
Discuss?
Wally
It seems that every time I turn around, the advice from Jeepers, is that you need a 400 horse power diesel, 700-800 foot pounds of torque to tow a Jeep safely.
I am gonna call BS.
Lets look at objective data.
1. What does the manufacture recommend for towing?
2. How can we compare objectively apples to apples?
3. How does that claim stand up against its competitors?
1. The manufacturer has the duty to be able to back up the claim from a liability standpoint. In other words their engineers build in a safety margin into the product so that they can claim that the consumer abused their product and that was the cause of the failure, if one were to occur. Typically its 1.5 to 2x the manufacturer’s ratings.
2. How can we compare objectively apples to apples?
Tractor trailers typically weight 21000 pounds give or take a ton. With a trailer they push 32000 pounds, give or take a ton. How much are they towing? Typically 40-46,000 pounds. That means that they are on average towing OVER twice the weight of the tow vehicle, and 1.5 times the weight of the tow vehicle and trailer togather.
Lets translate that into truck towing. One could infer that if handing was going to be a problem, and weight was the cause of poor handling, surely the kinds of weights that semi tractor trailers are hauling and towing, the weight ratios would be a good start on what not to do. What I am getting at, from a logical standpoint is that if its linear weights being compared to perceive danger, then the ratio limits for trucks should be good starting points, if its nonlinear and you disagree that we can't use the comparison, then then the greater the weight ratio the more perceive danger, therefore conservative numbers would be advised.
Let me give an example, starting with weight alone. If a truck weighs 6000 pounds, and the trailer weighs 2500, that works out to 8500 pounds with a trailer. Using a 1.5x times the weight of the truck and trailer, that would work out to about 12000 pound load on the trailer, in other words, 3 Jeeps AND all of their tools and supplies. OR a gross weight of around 10 ton.
From my perspective if there is a linear relationship involving weight, then the comparison would be valid, if its nonlinear then we would err on the side of caution with more weight not less and therefore my weight comparison would be conservative.
Another apples to apples to comparison that can be made is looking at engine performance for torque. The larger engines found in tractor trailers are pushing 5-700 horsepower and 1800-2000 foot pounds of torque. The smaller engines are NOT making those kinds of figures. If the maximum load that a tractor trailer can pull is 80,000 pounds gross, that works out to about 40 foot pounds of tow weight per pound of engine torque. That is a figure that should give an illustration or ball park target to shoot for when comparing one tow vehicle to another
3. Lets start comparing vehicles.
For fun, lets look at my 2004 Toyota Tacoma. Dry weight for a Double Cab Tacoma is 4200lbs. Thus with trailer (1400lbs) thus truck and trailer were about 5600lbs. Its max tow rating was 5000lbs, manufacturer’s claim. So the limiting factor was the manufacturer’s claim. 5000s lbs. Thankfully my Jeep (3400) and trailer (1400) weighed in under 5000 pounds at 4800. Thus the total gross weight was 9800lbs. Add in another 1000lbs for people, we are looking at 10,800lbs.
Legally and safely, the Tacoma met the standard. How did it tow? With a load leveling hitch and trailer brakes, it stopped safely, handled safely.
Now lets look at the performance side of things. Performance wise it had a 190 horse V6 with 225 foot pound of torque.
10800 gross tow weight. 225 foot pounds of torque. That works out to about 48 pounds of tow weight to every foot pound of engine torque. Sounds like its just a little underpowered when compared to a standard of 40.
Yes, it was a little underpowered. BUT guess what? It STILL pulled on the flat at 70mph without difficulty on the freeway and 55mph on steep hills deep in the Ozarks.
I moved to an F150. Dry weigh is 6000lbs. With trailer, it weighs in around 7400 pounds. What is the manufacturer claim? 9500 pounds max tow weight. Hmmmm that is just shy of 1.5 times the gross weight of the trailer and the truck. Are you starting to see a trend here? So the going with the manufacture’s claim of 9500, that puts us at 15500lbs gross load.
Moving onto the performance side of things. It has 310 hp and 390 foot pounds of torque.
15500 divided by 390 works out to about 40 pounds of tow weight for each foot pound of engine torque. Where did we see 40lbs of tow weight for each foot pound of engine torque?
Real world, my gross weight is about 12,200, per calibrated scales. That works out to about 31 pounds of tow weight per foot pound of engine torque.
Lets throw a Ford Superduty Diesel into the mix. Why? It’s a 1 ton truck, with a high performance diesel engine. 400 horsepower, 800 foot pounds of torque. Tow rating is 17500 pounds. Vehicle weight is 6400 pounds with super cab mid length wheelbase. Max total weight is 33,000 per manufacturer’s recommendations.
Lets try to look at this first from a max stand point, then real world. Max is 33,000 pounds. That works out to 41 pounds of tow weight per foot pound of engine torque. Since the manufacturer lists 17500 as the max tow weight, lets add in 1000lbs for people and gear on top of the 6400 pounds of the vehicle, the total weight comes to 24,900. That works out to about 31pounds of tow weight per foot pound of engine torque.
Lets pause and ponder for a moment. How many Jeeps can you haul for 17500lbs? Lets knock off 3000 for a decent trailer. That works out to 3 jeeps weighing at 4000lbs a piece PLUS all of their gear AND 4 full size adults.
I have one Jeep, and a 1400lb trailer for a total weight of 4800lbs. Fully loaded, with the family, a 1 ton diesel Ford diesel with 800 foot pounds of torque would be hauling 15lb of tow weight per foot pound of engine torque.
In essence the objective data is the manufacturer’s tow rating specifications AND engine performance. IMO 40sh lbs of tow weight per foot pound of torque is a FAIR ball park performance value to look at when deciding how BIG of a truck one needs for towing.
For me, I came to the conclusion that a ½ ton pick up would be more than adequate for towing ONE Jeep on a trailer. If I towed 10 ton, on a regular basis ie monthly or more, I would consider a ¾ or 1 ton, BUT since I don’t, I find little value in spending more money on performance that I don’t need.
Discuss?
Wally
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